I am a RiNO
By Neil Stevens Posted in Archived | primaries | Republicans | RINOs — Comments (155) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
Hello, my name is Neil, and I am a Republican in Name Only.
No, it's true. Really. I fit the classic definition. My views are outside the party mainstream, so much so that I cannot in good conscience vote for the Republican every election, every time, regardless of who gets nominated1.
I'm not alone, either. Between people like me being RiNOs, and the great mass of voters who don't even register for a party, non-Republicans and RiNOs just might carry more right-leaning electoral weight than 'real' Republicans.
This has consequences for the party, and especially for Republicans voting in the primary with an eye on winning in the general election.
Read on...
On issue after issue, my views take me out of step with the middle of the Republican party:
- I want Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and S-CHIP ended, not mended.
- I want taxes cut in half to compensate after we end those programs.
- I want several executive departments agencies gone including Education, Transportation, Energy, and Labor. I would also close well-known agencies like EPA, SEC, DEA, BATFE, and FDA.
- I don't think it makes sense to ban most forms of abortion on demand, but then allow it in cases of rape and incest.
- I would prohibit any mention, use, or categorization of people by 'race' in any government setting, including the Census Bureau and the courts.
- I favor radical judicial reform, up to and including stripping jurisdiction over Constitutional challenges of state abortion laws (and anywhere else the Supreme Court is grossly wrong and defies the other branches) from the federal court system.
- I would have favored hitting Iran's bomb program with nuclear bunker busters two years ago.
I could probably go on all day, but I will spare us all. Suffice it to say that I'm a far right winger and most of the time I vote, even when it's for a Republican, I'm making major compromises.
But sometimes I just break down. When I stands all I can stands, and I can't stands no more, I won't vote for the nominated Republican in a given race. When the candidate is too far away from me, that he's even to the left of the party mainstream, that becomes too much of a compromise for me to stomach. So I won't hestiate to vote for another party's candidate.
We've now established that I'm outside the mainstream and while I'm a regular Republican voter, I'm not 100% reliable. By the standards of many, that makes me a RiNO. So the question is: should I just quit the party, giving up on counterweighting the liberals at all, or is my occasional defection worth it?
That's up to the party men; the people who vote Republican every single time, without fail, and who get active and write party rules, are the ones who have to answer that.
1: I discount here freaks like David Duke. Not voting for him is a mainstream Republican thing to do.
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democrat from 1980-1998 and I am a party man for my new party, ie the GOP since 2001-now. Why. Omnly parties get things done, and this is esp true fro President.
But I do find myself quite disappointed that my excitement at my conservative epiphany, is not quite shared by too mnay repubs when they get to DC.
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
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"One man with courage makes a majority" - Andrew Jackson
...when are you filing your papers to run as a candidate? I'd vote for that platform in a heartbeat.
In reference to your post as a whole, I must agree. I know we have a big race next year, and while I will hold my nose and vote for any of our candidates (save HWMNBN [he can sell crazy someplace else]), I understand there are those who cannot, and I respect their decision.
In 1996, I was a 17 year old moron (how that differentiates me as a 28 year old moron now is anyone's guess) and wished I was old enough to vote for Perot (stop laughing). Clinton was too liberal and Dole was too...uhh....Dole-ish. The thing is, I still feel the same way today about that race, and given the choice again, I would vote third party.
While my political views have changed, I am still unwilling to bend on my principles. If we compromise the beliefs we hold most sacred for "just one more election - this one is REALLY important!!" then we risk getting exactly what we vote for. Under this circumstance, all we will be able to do is stand by idly and watch our principles circle the drain. It's just not worth it to vote for a candidate simply because of the letter by their name if it means losing the values that cause you to vote in the first place.
Short version: 5
Disagree with you on how to get them done and what stops us from going forward on them.
Does that make me a flaming lib ?
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I agree with almost everything except I kind of see the usefulness of the SEC and the FDA....And maybe I wouldn't do the bunker buster quite so soon.
When the candidate is too far away from me, that he's even to the left of the party mainstream, that becomes too much of a compromise for me to stomach. So I won't hestiate to vote for another party's candidate.
We've got a problem recently bringing the kind of candidates even RiNOs can vote for out of the shadows and into elected office. I think we need a Renaissance of the RiNOs. ;)
the precious swamp in south Florida if we knew it was there!
This greenie lib since 1978 imposed self suicide that pays for terrorism against us enrages me
and is one of the reasons I'm for Fred
But yes Neil the GOP has proven too liberal for me since my conversion in 2000.
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
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"One man with courage makes a majority" - Andrew Jackson
RiNOs need guns, too. And the problem with some of our left-of-mainstream candidates is that they've also run too far away from the 2nd Amendment. My feeling is that all RiNOs should be well-armed, if they want to be. It's fun!
I have a right to bear fully automatic weapons no matter what their grips look like. I also have the right to a magazine as big as I want.
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But I have to ask why the parody of the prof with right to keep and bear doomsday weapons ?
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if you know how, at least a black powder mortar. The only part that is at all hard is the potassium nitrate (saltpeter or niter), but it is in a variety of agricultural products and using them just gives dirty burning powder. If all else fails, you can just keep a clay jug outside the back door and begin collecting urine in it. That is how the CSA got the niter for much of its powder production. There was a whole service dedicated to collecting the "slop jars," and it was said only half in jest that everytime a Southern lady "excused herself" she was helping shoot Yankees. The Confederacy's powder plant at Augusta, Georgia was at the time the largest industrial plant in the World.
In Vino Veritas
For the record I actually own no guns, and haven't fired one since I was maybe 12, heh. And that was the only time I ever fired one.
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gun. I have won two turkey shoots, one as a teen and one a few years ago, but I am for the right to bear under the 2nd, beacuse its the law! The Constitution is THE law. And the recent DC Cir decision by Silberman is THE masterpeice on this: Self defense of one's home PRE-DATES the Constitution!
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
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www.hinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
"One man with courage makes a majority" - Andrew Jackson
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
www.race42008.com
www.hinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
"One man with courage makes a majority" - Andrew Jackson
This is probable cause for the ATF (until Neil eliminates them, that is).
The correct answer is: "Yes, but only if the mail is privatized..." ;)
The post office is in the Constitution :-)
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Because frankly I don't know anyone who wants fully automatic weapons. They're just really much too hard to maintain, and very expensive.
I don't have any, but if the opportunity ever came around, I would like to have some. Remember, if we can modify or eliminate the NFA, they would be much less expensive.
Two words: gun collectors.
P.S. I want a Maxim Gun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_Gun
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
with a VERY large certified check...
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Such a check is something I do not have right now.
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
And you wonder, Neil, why I doubt your sincerity a lot of the time. Even if the rest of your post was parody, what was that?
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There isn't a single person I know of right now who wants automatic weapons except you.
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For a minute there I thought Neil was going to be all by himself in his private army.
Its an absolutely fascinating machine.
From what I have heard though I haven't even gotten up the nerve to even look at the requirements to own one.
Out of curiosity does Massachusetts have an exemption for black powder antiques ? I know New York used to.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
You can get a license as an firearms curio collector for those types of weapons, because in most cases there is no ammunition available for them and anyone who would fire one would have a very tough time, in addition to wearing down and/or destroying a valuable historic artifact. In fact the Federal license for antique/curio collectors is not that difficult to obtain, and it entitles the bearer to purchase, possess, collect and sell (although not *deal*) in those kinds of weapons. It's a personal license and you need to be cognizant of that.
It's called an 03-FFL and is essentially a "neutered" FFL. So yes, if you can find one and have an 03-FFL, you too can own a gatling gun. Keep it in your living room, even.
You didn't even need the license and it was for all blackpowder weapons.
The gattling gun wasn't covered for some reason.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
MA has a blackpowder exemption:
Chapter 140: Section 129C. Application of Sec. 129B; ownership or possession of firearms or ammunition; transfers; report to executive director; exemptions; exhibiting license to carry, etc. on demand ...
...
The provisions of this section shall not apply to the following exempted persons and uses:
...
(p) Carrying or possession by residents or nonresidents of so-called black powder rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor as described in such paragraphs (A) and (B) of the third paragraph of section 121, and the carrying or possession of conventional rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor by nonresidents who meet the requirements for such carrying or possession in the state in which they reside.
However it also states:
Any person, exempted by clauses (o), (p) and (q), purchasing a rifle or shotgun or ammunition therefor shall submit to the seller such full and clear proof of identification, including shield number, serial number, military or governmental order or authorization, military or other official identification, other state firearms license, or proof of nonresidence, as may be applicable.
It's a very grey area of the law and my sincere advice to anyone considering buying a black-powder weapon thinking they are in the clear under Massachusetts law should consult an expert before purchasing one, much less displaying one.
If the rest of my experience with this state is any guide, you will be arrested first and then your defense team will prove your innocence later. You have been warned.
I agree that the Gatling Gun is really really interesting, but it is not a true machine gun. The Maxim Gun was the world's first true machine gun.
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
for any competent machinist to make; all it is is a rotary barrel early breechloading type black powder weapon. Like any blackpowder weapon, its great liability is that the barrel(s) foul very quickly. Ten or fifteen shots is about the limit before you have to clean the barrel. The greatest use for the water in a WBTS soldier's canteen was to clean his weapon's barrel, and it was very common for the men to have to resort to urinating in the barrel to swab the powder residue out. Even high quality modern black powder leaves a LOT of residue.
I once spent a pleasant Sunday afternoon helping serve a 12 pound muzzleloading mountain howitzer at a re-enactment. I took a shower and changed clothes at the end of the day and again the next morning before going to ATL to catch a plane home. I got to spend quality time with airport security at ATL, Memphis, O'Hare, and SEA because there was still enough nitrate residue in my pores to set off their bomb detectors - and this was BEFORE 9-11.
In Vino Veritas
I just think the Constitution *enables* ownership of them, for a very specific reason: giving their owners a fighting chance.
I didn't even say I wanted one, I said I have the right to one.
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Fully automatic firearms didn't exist. Everyone was using muzzleloaders. The Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms. If you want to press that, it could mean anything up to and including a nuclear weapon. I have to ask why you're so adamant about it? A fully-automatic weapon is useful for certain tactical situations in which you need a large amount of suppressive firepower, virtually of no use for anything else. Is that why you think you need one?
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But that's no way to go through life, Neil. ;) Harsh language has specific uses in dreadful situations, too. Cockamamie assertions like wishing for automatic weapons might be one of the dreadful situations people find themselves in, but bro, life isn't that bad! Trust me.
they had just finished fighting a war with England to earn the rights that they codified into the Constitution. They knew full well the value of possessing arms that were used specifically to kill representatives of the government (ie. England and the British Army) who had been suppressing their rights. So when they wrote of the "right to bear arms," I am pretty sure they were not thinking about owning a .22 to shoot rabbits. I believe that right is there to provide some sort of check against the possibility that the government might again become an entity that may need to be opposed by armed conflict.
“I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels” - John Calvin
It's certainly true that law enforcement officers have access to fully-automatic weapons and can purchase them, although I'm not willing to say that they do so willy-nilly or carte blanche. I do know that most of the police officers I know in my very small town are well-armed, both in their professional capacities and in their private lives. It's frankly impossible for ordinary citizens under Massachusetts law to possess weaponry that even compares to that allowed to its law enforcement officers. You just cannot do it, and you don't want to try.
A clear question would be something like this: are the cops on the beat allowed to purchase machine guns and keep them in their homes even though private citizens cannot. In other words, if you are a bonafide law enforcement officer (and there are no shortage of bad apples) are you allowed to purchase, keep and maintain automatic weapons outside your official duties?
I don't know the answer to that question in Massachusetts, because I haven't thought to investigate it. I don't know if I want to investigate it.
After 9/11 I pretty much went along with the idea that all of our police officers should be as well-armed as they wanted to be. But frankly I have no idea what they've been buying. For all I know my local cops could have a fully-automatic Barrett .50 in their basement, perfectly legally. I just don't know the answer to the question. Most of the time in Massachusetts I do my best as a citizen to avoid running afoul of the constabulary, whose reach here is pretty broad.
give them the right to possess an automatic weapon even if state or local law would permit it. To the limited extent that you can own them, it is only under a federal license independent from your law enforcement commission. Most cop shops really don't like officers playing with guns off duty outside hunting and structured shooting. Most state's commissioned law enforcement officers have the power of their office 24/7 and are expected to intervene in a criminal act they observe whether technically on duty or not. If Officer Smith just happens to have his full-auto Uzi with him when he sees a felony in progress and saws the perp in half with it, his employer is going to have some 'splaining to do and probably some checks to write. The agency would vastly prefer that the officer only be armed with the service weapon issued by the department, since they may be liable for his actions.
In Vino Veritas
In Massachusetts, it's illegal for a private citizen to possess *pepper spray* without a Firearms Identification Card.
If you get stopped in your car and for whatever reason a cop searches it and finds pepper spray and you don't have an FIC, you're going to jail.
I am really, really, really beginning to not like your home state.
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
I don't know how it happened to Massaschusetts, except for the fact that the Democrats all moved in and took up permanent residence and can't be extricated without the political equivalent of industrial-grade blasting materials.
I look at the code in places like Utah and it just boggles the mind. People in Utah really are living in a kind of paradise -- at least in terms of the size of the government there. Here in Massachusetts there's nothing you can do without consulting a lawyer. How it happened to this historic Revolutionary state is really, really depressing. Don't let it happen to your state.
The protection of the United States against any enemy foreign or domestic. That is not a limited right. Sure, you can carry the argument clear up to nukes and there are many legitimate arguments both pro and con, but there is no legitimate way that full-autos can be excluded, whether you know anyone who wants them or not.
Oh yeah, you live in Massachusetts. No wonder you don't know know anybody who wants an automatic weapon. Of course the rest of us know that in Massachusetts you will probably NEED an automatic weapon sooner or later.
Come to Arizona. I'll not only introduce you to people who "want" automatic weapons, I'll introduce you to people who legally own them.
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Let me remind everyone of something they seem to forget: the phrase "the people" appears six times in the Bill of Rights, and the Second Amendment is the only place that some folks decide to ignore it. And it doesn't say "will sometimes not be infringed", and it doesn't say "will not be infringed as long as it's not for really dangerous arms". Make no mistake, people -- all of the rest of your rights are merely on loan to you from the government, if you do not have the right to enforce them and demand them and protect them yourselves. I advise you to look long and hard at the history that lead to the inclusion of our Second Amendment rights, including British attempts to seize arms stashes, and the history of gun control legislation in the U.S. (including Congress wetting their pants when a bunch of World War I veterans marched on Washington, and our Reps wondered "Uh, what if they brought guns next time?").
If someone owns an automatic weapon and kills a ton of people with it, then the crime should be -- anyone, anyone? -- killing people! It shouldn't matter what kind of weapon a person uses. And it's nobody's right to tell the rest of us what weapons are "too dangerous" for us to own or not own. The colonists had and were able to keep weapons just like those used by the military, so I don't buy the argument that the Founding Fathers didn't anticipate modern military arms. And I also reject the argument that it's pointless because our weapons would be no match for any hypothetical military takeover here -- tell that to any number of lesser-armed groups who fought huge odds against a modern army and won... the Soviet Union sure found out the hard way.
Bottom line, anyone who doesn't personally want to exercise their Constitutional right to keep and bear arms, doesn't have to. But they shouldn't expect the rest of us to give ours up just to make them feel better.
and own automatic weapons. Lots of people want to be my friend so that I'll take them to the range. I also have a manufacturer's license and can convert semi to fully auto, and can buy and build up to 40mm... which is nice.
all those bigoted and not-nice things I said about squirrels!
Penance!
Groveling!!!
Dude, I want to be your friend!
Stare decisis is fo' suckas -- Feddie
I can no longer see it, but my first blog here at RS was on the theme that my vote is not for sale. I am a conservative guy, and there is more than one GOP candidate for POTUS who I could enthusiastically cast my vote in the general election '08. There are some progressive populists running for POTUS in '08 in the GOP that I am not too excited about. POTUS with the (R) after their name is not enough for me. I voted for W in 2000 & 2004 in spite of the big government agenda that he ran on. In 2008 if a candidate like Huckabee or McCain who have bought into the carbon-tax populism currently in vogue get the nod by the GOP, then they will not receive my vote.
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.
If I were king for a day, I would:
Abolish the IRS, EPA, DOE, NEA, PBS, etc., immediately.
End welfare, WIC, Pell Grants, food stamps, government housing, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc., without notice.
Not only stop farm subsidies, but confiscate the property of anyone who has ever received them.
Outlaw health insurance. (Want the services of a doctor? After your visit, take out your wallet and pay the guy. The price of medical care would drop by more than three-fourths.)
Turn the 48 contiguous states into a walled fortress. Citizens may come and go at will. Non-citizens must seek permission.
Administer a civics test to every citizen who would like to vote.
Order the arrest of every employee of the State Department and most of the CIA. And Dennis Kucinich.
I would probably go to bed after that day's work.
Doesn't Ron Paul actually have a good point here as it relates to abortion? He has introduced a bill to strip the courts of jurisdiction over abortion, but Republican leadership never considered bringing it up even when they were in the majority.
I may have my facts wrong here, but it is interesting that the GOP Congrss rarely even tried to use its jurisdiction-stripping power. One exception was on marriage, where the House did the right thing, but Bill Frist apparently never deemed it worthy of consideration in the Senate.
The Senate voted on a marriage amendment last year, and it did not even get a simple majority.
Still, I agree Frist was a bad leader, and I feel that he did much damage to the party.
RiNO is usually used to describe moderates or liberals. You are obviously a far right-wing conservative. There are millions of Republicans who think like you and I see no reason at all why you would ever vote for a Democrat. I guess you could start voting for the Constitution Party or something... which would be a whole new kind of RiNO.
There are lot fewer of me than there are people like Arlen Specter, heh. So guys like him get tagged with the RiNO label more often.
But Moe's been slinging that label around in the ABG discussions, so I'm rolling with it, heh. Takes one to know one :-)
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"There are lot fewer of me than there are people like Arlen Specter, heh. So guys like him get tagged with the RiNO label more often."
Are there? I wonder.
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
I have to think that if there were more of us around, then we'd be dominating the primaries and electing more of us.
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I think that a number of people that think like us on policy get bamboozled into thinking we need to moderate to win.
Perhaps, but it might just be a perception issue, a vestige of New Deal era garbage, and/ or a result of coalition politics (read lack of Conservatives in leadership positions).
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
Surely this is all mainstream stuff . . . oh, no, hang on, I'm an extremist too.
As I see it you haven't even started to address some of the contentious stuff.
For example, once the federal government has pulled out of education entirely, should the states have vouchers or just not fund education at all?
What do my recreational pharmaceuticals have to do with anyone else?
What is the best model for privatising the police? Or the courts?
I could go on, but I am pretty sure there will be threadjacking all over the place if I do.
The question that is worth asking, though, is what can you get from the next Republican administration.
In my country, I am hoping the next Conservative government will introduce school vouchers. Compared with my fantasy list it is a small step. Compared with what any government ever has achieved, even Margaret Thatcher's, it is huge.
If you think you can get something major, that has to be worth a vote.
Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net
International Editor of
Your a true blue, red blooded american. Every time I vote for who I think has the right stuff, he turns out a little more wishy washie than I like (See the Bushes). But in the end, I vote against someone more than I vote for them. When it comes to foreign Policy, we need another Ronald Reagon. When he bombed Libbia (sp) he sure queited that place down.
I also would add that we need to limit jury awards in medical malepractice awards. Thats killing our medical systems. Yet, little is said about it. 1/2 of all medical cost can be directly linked to this problem. Instead of Hillary Care, we need freedom from the layers.
I always thought a RINO was a good liberal democrat elected on the Republican dime. (ie. Arlen Specter, Tom Davis, etc.)
Your description sounds to me like an RR “REAL Republican (tm)”.
Our party is drifted toward the squishy left (as witnessed by many of our current “front runners”), I submit that YOU are a true Republican and that the party in too many places has RINO-fied.
become President for four years would make enacting your platform more likely.(yeah I know you didn't say that you wouldn't vote for Rudy in this thread, but you did tip toe around it). As always, I'd go to war with you on the issues any day of the week.
Go Fred!
Oz
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Ron Paul supports just about everyone of your platform points other than bombing Iran.
Do you really want to abolish the FDA? We have arguably the safest food distribution system in the world yet you wish to do away with it? Why?
How bout the Nuclear Regulatory Commission? Should we just trust the utilities to build safe nuclear facilities and maintain them properly?
FTC? FAA? FCC? Get rid of them as well?
How bout the DoJ?
There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy
You make unusually good points flyerhawk. I'll sign on to your plan to get rid of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the FTC, FAA and FCC.
I can't go along with you on the DOJ though, that is a constitutionally warranted office.
I think at least some of the duties of the NRC may be mandated by treaty. If not the NPT then something else, surely.
FTC seems to have a legitimate purpose of regulating interstate trade.
FAA also may have treaty duties, but if not, I can still live with it because of the almost essentially interstate nature of air travel (ironic that I say that when of the times I've flown, only once I went out of state).
FCC is useful because it's way too easy for different states to trample each other with broadcasts.
Now, of these agencies I'm sure I'd want to relieve them of some of their current duties, but I wouldn't eliminate them.
DoJ is pretty important for basic law enforcement for all of the above, I think. I didn't know you were so libertarian.
As for Ron Paul, that's the sad part of his run. He's let himself get so hijacked by freaks, that he's alienated people like me who should be his natural base.
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I think you guys are willing to throw away the baby with the bathwater but I do understand where you're coming from.
I just can't get behind the idea that the government should leave the regulatory business. Too many people willing to do too many bad things.
There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy
Constitutionally, as well as under principles of capitalism and good government, the government has a narrow role to play in life. Government should not do all the things we would like done, but rather be limited to those things that can't be done any other way. Every "good" thing that you cede to the government is one more grain of power added to their portfolio.
Capitalism works because self-interest works. In other words, greed that is restrained only by the market itself and very limited government checks against fraud actually helps those other than the greedy individual. Government actually destroys this mechanism when it gets involved.
I was picking on you with my post above, because I believe there is some clear responsibilities of the government. Those responsibilities should be limited to limiting fraud and protecting private property rights(which opens up a whole can of worms re: pollution). I don't think we should get rid of government, but we need to stop turning over all power and rights to the government in exchange for a dubious benefit.
Government should not do all the things we would like done, but rather be limited to those things that can't be done any other way. Every "good" thing that you cede to the government is one more grain of power added to their portfolio.
There is nothing inherently wrong with government performing any service. And we most certainly should not limit the government to those things that can't be done any other way because there is nothing the government does that CAN'T be done another way.
However there are some things that the government is far BETTER at doing than private enterprise. Running a military is a good example. So is supplying water. So is keeping the peace.
Capitalism works because self-interest works. In other words, greed that is restrained only by the market itself and very limited government checks against fraud actually helps those other than the greedy individual.
But these regulatory agencies are put in place PRIMARILY to prevent fraud and theft. Neil mentioned doing away with the SEC. Why? Should we allow insider trading? Should we allow collaboration between ostensibly opposed groups? Should we allow people to sell bogus products on the market based on nothing more than empty promises? How would the elimination affect the faith and trust that people have in our markets?
I don't think we should get rid of government, but we need to stop turning over all power and rights to the government in exchange for a dubious benefit.
Glad to hear you're not an anarchist. Government is nothing more than the collective will of a society. Sometimes the collective will of the people takes precedence over the individual desires of those same people. The framers knew this and thus created the 5th Amendment.
Capitalism is a great system because it is simple. But it is far from perfect and has many inherent flaws. To ignore these flaws out of a desire to adhere to a principle is folly.
There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy
all these roles that you want government to play? If you can't, then by default they are illegitimate, even if they might provide a good service.
Section 8 - Powers of Congress
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
Of course we were talking about government in general and not just the government structure of the US Constitution.
There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy
You said above that the government could do about anything. To relate many of the government's activites to interstate commerce is a ridiculous stretch and is how we got into our current situation.
If you were referring to state and local government as well, then I don't disagree as much. I thought that you were referring to the federal government.
It was argued upthread that government in generally should be eschewed except where it is the only choice. No mention of what level government this applied to thus I would assume it applies to all levels of government.
We can argue about this or that following under the Commerce Clause, if you like. But we would then at least implicitly agree that some regulatory power DOES fall to the Feds because of the Commerce Clause.
There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy
Can you justify all these roles of government under an originalist understanding of the commerce clause? Remember, FDR era judicial activists redefined commerce, and thus the Commerce Clause, in order to justify FDR's mess.
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
"There is nothing inherently wrong with government performing any service."
Whaa? Flyer, remember economics. Government is an inherently inefficient and suboptimal allocator of resources. Government is also an inherently coercive actor, and last time I checked force can be necessary, and/or justifiable, but it is always morally wrong.
"And we most certainly should not limit the government to those things that can't be done any other way because there is nothing the government does that CAN'T be done another way."
Flyer, have your ever heard of a public good?
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
Whaa? Flyer, remember economics. Government is an inherently inefficient and suboptimal allocator of resources. Government is also an inherently coercive actor, and last time I checked force can be necessary, and/or justifiable, but it is always morally wrong.
Government may not be as financially efficient as the private sector but that is because they don't measure success using financial indicators.
Are the police morally wrong to use force against a criminal? Certainly they are being coercive.
See the problem is that you guys approach this discussion with the belief that government is inherently evil, just as many on the Left believe that corporations are inherently evil.
But that simply isn't true. Government is exactly what we allow it to be. Same is true of corporations. They both serve a role that is necessary to a vibrant and stable society. Having government act as a corporation is likely to be a bad idea but so is having corporations acting like government.
And what I mean by that is that government should be the agent that provides services that do not properly respond to free market physics. Corporations should be the agent that provides services that DO follow free market physics.
There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy
"Government may not be as financially efficient as the private sector but that is because they don't measure success using financial indicators."
Governments are economically inefficient. They always produce wasteful shortages, and surpluses. In economics speak government is a sub- optimal allocator of resources.
"Are the police morally wrong to use force against a criminal? Certainly they are being coercive."
As I said force is always morally wrong. Force can be justifiable, it might be necessary, but it is never morally right.
"See the problem is that you guys approach this discussion with the belief that government is inherently evil, just as many on the Left believe that corporations are inherently evil. But that simply isn't true. "
Government is at its best a necessary evil, and at its worse tyranny. It is intrinsically evil, because it is by nature a coercive entity. All government activity stems directly, or indirectly from coercion and coercion is always evil.
You need a better comparison. Most leftist can not even define the word corporation. Those of us on the right on the other had can usually define government, and even describe its basic structures, and functions.
"Having government act as a corporation is likely to be a bad idea but so is having corporations acting like government."
Why? If they are both nothing more than "...what we allow them to be," we should have not fear either of them
"And what I mean by that is that government should be the agent that provides services that do not properly respond to free market physics. Corporations should be the agent that provides services that DO follow free market physics."
What are "free market physics?"
I think you might be contradicting your previous statement "...we most certainly should not limit the government to those things that can't be done any other way because there is nothing the government does that CAN'T be done another way."
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
Sorry work called me away yesterday.
Governments are economically inefficient. They always produce wasteful shortages, and surpluses. In economics speak government is a sub- optimal allocator of resources.
But economic efficiency is only one measurement of effectiveness. There are no economic measurements to determine safety or quality of life. All economics can do is determine costs and profits.
As I said force is always morally wrong. Force can be justifiable, it might be necessary, but it is never morally right.
This statement makes no sense. If it is justifiable how can it be immoral?
What are "free market physics?"
Supply and demand functions. Velocity of money. Liquidity. I was using a term to cover it all.
I'm not sure how I'm contradicting anything I've said.
Government is at its best a necessary evil, and at its worse tyranny. It is intrinsically evil, because it is by nature a coercive entity. All government activity stems directly, or indirectly from coercion and coercion is always evil.
Really? So when the government builds a bridge it is a necessary evil? Why is it evil in building the bridge?
Why? If they are both nothing more than "...what we allow them to be," we should have not fear either of them
Fear the men behind them. In and of themselves they have no ability to do anything. It requires people to do things.
There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy
"But economic efficiency is only one measurement of effectiveness."
Economically inefficient systems, create poverty, starvation, and general misery. Heck in the long run economically inefficiency causes the collapse of governments, and the destruction of societies. In consequence, economic efficiency is extremely important because the future depends upon it.
"There are no economic measurements to determine safety or quality of life."
Now it has been a long time since I sat in a Microeconomics class, and economic history, and international economics were the twin focuses of my econ minor, but I can recall several economic measurements of quality of life (utils, standard of living, etc.)
"All economics can do is determine costs and profits."
Flyer, I think you have economics mixed up with accounting. Economics is a social science (one of the few left with objectivity), and as such it can be used to understand all human behaviors.
"This statement makes no sense. If it is justifiable how can it be immoral?"
I will give you an example. In this example there are two groups of people (group A, and Group B). Both of these groups are stranded, and isolated from any additional food supplies. Neither of the groups has enough food to survive. Faced with this reality Group B kills the members of group A, and takes their food supplies. Now Group B's actions were immoral, but also justifiable, because the made it possible for Group B to survive.
"Supply and demand functions. Velocity of money. Liquidity. I was using a term to cover it all."
Ok.
"I'm not sure how I'm contradicting anything I've said."
Possible contradiction in the following quotes.
"There is nothing inherently wrong with government performing any service. And we most certainly should not limit the government to those things that can't be done any other way because there is nothing the government does that CAN'T be done another way."
"...what I mean by that is that government should be the agent that provides services that do not properly respond to free market physics. Corporations should be the agent that provides services that DO follow free market physics."
"Really? So when the government builds a bridge it is a necessary evil?"
Yes. Sometimes government built bridges are an unnecessary evils (remember various "bridges to no where")
"Why is it evil in building the bridge?"
Government does not exist in a vacuum. All the resources used to build the bride are directly, or indirectly fruits of coercion, and coercion is always evil.
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
Government may not be as financially efficient as the private sector but that is because they don't measure success using financial indicators.
What does it measure success by? Past experience would lead me to conclude that almost all government leaders measure success by their ability to get themselves or their fellow party members (re)elected. Related to this, it appears that centralizing and consolidating their own power is also a primary measure of success for said leaders.
And what I mean by that is that government should be the agent that provides services that do not properly respond to free market physics. Corporations should be the agent that provides services that DO follow free market physics.
Nothing objectionable there, but the debate is really over what functions are necessary but which also cannot thrive under the free market, isn't it?
For example, I say the federal Department of Education can go - free market education models have been shown to work in other countries, and I don't hear anyone denouncing the small but extant private school industry in America as a failure. At minimum I'd hope we can agree that all functions of the DOE at the federal level are un-necessary in light of the ability for States to adopt whatever education programs and approaches their citizens see fit. In its current form, the federal DOE appears to exist only as a vehicle for centralizing and increasing authority over the education of children under the the federal executive branch.
Regarding regulatory agencies, we might take them case by case, but in general I'm much more for a healthy and active judicial system in which citizens are able to take their complaints and seek redress. It seems to me what we often get with regulatory agencies are a lot of people on the taxpayer dole who go out and search for "problems", which may often end up being purely clerical and not at all infringing on another citizen in a way that offends our sense of justice.
The outcome seems to miss the mark too. In my opinion the proper outcome from a bunch of ecoli-infested beef ought to be severe punishment in the marketplace by way of consumers discontinuing their purchase from that provider. Can you even, honestly (without searching) name the last two beef producers that sold ecoli beef to Americans? I don't know, maybe they got fined by the FDA or something, but the mentality in America right now is that the FDA will protect us so why pay attention and shop smart? The mentality ought to be "I know Company X can't keep manure out of its meat so I'm buying Company Y". I hope for an "I read Consumer Reports" mentality, not an "I trust Nanny to clean my beef" mentality.
For example, I say the federal Department of Education can go - free market education models have been shown to work in other countries, and I don't hear anyone denouncing the small but extant private school industry in America as a failure. At minimum I'd hope we can agree that all functions of the DOE at the federal level are un-necessary in light of the ability for States to adopt whatever education programs and approaches their citizens see fit. In its current form, the federal DOE appears to exist only as a vehicle for centralizing and increasing authority over the education of children under the the federal executive branch.
But you aren't arguing that government shouldn't be in the education business. You are arguing the Federal government shouldn't be involved. That's fine.
Regarding regulatory agencies, we might take them case by case, but in general I'm much more for a healthy and active judicial system in which citizens are able to take their complaints and seek redress. It seems to me what we often get with regulatory agencies are a lot of people on the taxpayer dole who go out and search for "problems", which may often end up being purely clerical and not at all infringing on another citizen in a way that offends our sense of justice.
We live in a very big country and creating a perfect regulatory code is essentially impossible because there are so many different circumstances. So you do what you can.
The outcome seems to miss the mark too. In my opinion the proper outcome from a bunch of ecoli-infested beef ought to be severe punishment in the marketplace by way of consumers discontinuing their purchase from that provider. Can you even, honestly (without searching) name the last two beef producers that sold ecoli beef to Americans? I don't know, maybe they got fined by the FDA or something, but the mentality in America right now is that the FDA will protect us so why pay attention and shop smart? The mentality ought to be "I know Company X can't keep manure out of its meat so I'm buying Company Y". I hope for an "I read Consumer Reports" mentality, not an "I trust Nanny to clean my beef" mentality.
You're making a circular argument. One of the biggest reasons WHY our beef doesn't kill people is BECAUSE the government monitors the industries and requires beef producers to follow specific guidelines.
It is fantasy to think that the market could properly regulate this sort of thing. First of all the market has reactive pressures. It's all well and good to say that the market would stop buying food from tainted sources but that doesn't help the people who fall victim to those tainted sources in the first place. Secondly even if a company were to face market blowback what is to prevent them from changing their brand name?
Take a look at China for a example of what can happen. A complete lack of government oversight certainly hasn't improved their product safety.
There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy
"You're making a circular argument. One of the biggest reasons WHY our beef doesn't kill people is BECAUSE the government monitors the industries and requires beef producers to follow specific guidelines."
Can you prove that statement?
"Take a look at China for a example of what can happen. A complete lack of government oversight certainly hasn't improved their product safety."
China is still a semi-communist country. Its gov
Other than wanting to phase out SSA and Medicare over time, I'm with you on all the listed issues.
more later
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
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"One man with courage makes a majority" - Andrew Jackson