Democrats refuse to pass FISA; House GOP walks out
By Jeff Emanuel Posted in Breaking News | Congress | FISA | National Security | Republicans — Comments (195) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
Just moments ago, Republican Representatives walked off of the House floor in response to the Democrats' refusal to pass (or even debate) the bipartisan, Senate-passed FISA legislation.
"Meanwhile," according to a source close to the House GOP, "the Democrats are debating the merits of former White House staff."
Video below:
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Section 2 of the Protect America Act, which is not affected by the sunset provision:
`ADDITIONAL PROCEDURE FOR AUTHORIZING CERTAIN ACQUISITIONS CONCERNING PERSONS LOCATED OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES
`Sec. 105B. (a) Notwithstanding any other law, the Director of National Intelligence and the Attorney General, may for periods of up to one year authorize the acquisition of foreign intelligence information concerning persons reasonably believed to be outside the United States
So this keeps going well into the next administration, even if the law does expire. Expiration doesn't mean that any current order shall end, nor that any new order is prohibited.
That does not seem to impact the stated desire of lefties like you to make sure that people on this end of the conversation are safe from worry.
___________________________________
Two thirds of the world is covered by water,
the other third is covered by Champ Bailey.
“.....women and minorities hardest hit”
I'm glad they had the guts to do this.
Fighting for conservatism one day at a time.
....you care to mention that any law that expires can remain in effect for up to 12 months after the law expires? There is no need for the Rs to join Bush in fear mongering. They are above that. America is no more in danger prior to the law expiring as it is after the law expires on Friday or Saturday. Would you also like to mention that the Rs refused to even vote on a 15 day extension for the current law allowing more time to debate?
Lets be fair in who is guilty here. It is not a one-sided affair. Both sides are equally culpable.
by specific example please.
No, there is a perfectly good bill passed out of the Senate.
Only lefty extremists are blocking its being even considered.
The only fault and culpability here is that of dhimmies who are trying to defeat America and help terrorists.
1. Why do we need 15 days - or any days for that matter - for further debate. This subject has been beaten to death for the last year plus.
2. Let's be fair who is guilty. If the US is attacked after this travesty, Nancy and Dem Leadership should be arrested and tried for treason, and hung.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
If we are attacked, why bother to waste a rope on the Democrats-just take them out by a military firing squad-it'll be as close as any of them ever get to seeing honorable live combat.
"Do not yield. Do not flinch. Stand up. Stand up with our President and fight. We're Americans. We're Americans, and we'll never surrender. They will."-John McCain
McCain/Rudy 08-kill the terrorists and punch the hippies.
Death by hanging is an ignominius way to go. They should be hung. Unless we can convince someone that "hung, drawn and quartered" would be better.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
Althought I'm not sure that they are worth the tiring out of perfectly good horses...
"Do not yield. Do not flinch. Stand up. Stand up with our President and fight. We're Americans. We're Americans, and we'll never surrender. They will."-John McCain
McCain/Rudy 08-kill the terrorists and punch the hippies.
I understand that tires no horses and has pretty close to the same result...
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
Ronald Reagan
If some terrorist steals a plane are they more likely to crash it:
a) into some grain elevator in Montana
b) into Congress
???????
You'd think everybody in Congress would want to do everything possible to stop terrorist plots.
"Hey, I call 'em like I see 'em. I'm a whale biologist."
...extension is needed? Again?
Hubby and co are working hard to make it happen. Lots and lots of people involved with this.
Fox news is reporting he will delay this trip to press Congress. This is big and Bush is not going down without a fight.
As for the House Republicans-good for them. I hope they get used to doing this. If we happen to lose the WH, they are going to have to do this often.
If only the Senate was as admirable, we could really get some things done. BTW, Africa has quietly been W's proudest achievement, just another reasons why he's more worthy of the titel of first Black President than Slick Willy will ever be. Of course when I suggest that in Black circles, people look at me like I've suggested injecting their daughters with HIV.
"Do not yield. Do not flinch. Stand up. Stand up with our President and fight. We're Americans. We're Americans, and we'll never surrender. They will."-John McCain
McCain/Rudy 08-kill the terrorists and punch the hippies.
Big things are planned for that continent and it is a huge emphasis item for Bush.
Beyond that, I better shut up.
It will be fascinating to watch though. Some never before stuff at work.
I'd love to hear more about this. I'm gonna have to check into this further.
His inner circles say it is what he is most passionate about, but he does not like to do it with big fanfare, it is another area where his big ol Texan heart shows itself, quiet charity, unlike some people who have to host a press conference and tv show to announce everyhing there doing.....O, you caught me rambling ;-)
"Do not yield. Do not flinch. Stand up. Stand up with our President and fight. We're Americans. We're Americans, and we'll never surrender. They will."-John McCain
McCain/Rudy 08-kill the terrorists and punch the hippies.
inject all the black daughters in Africa with AIDS? I knew it was all his fault!!
"All that need be done for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
I went on a worlwide AIDS Infection Tour, everyone who was Black got it from my vial that George Bush and Dick Cheney gave me from Cheney's evil Halliburton lab that we hide in the stolen Oil Fields in Iraq that we went in to conquer for the Great Empire, America so we could have a place to plot another Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans.
"Do not yield. Do not flinch. Stand up. Stand up with our President and fight. We're Americans. We're Americans, and we'll never surrender. They will."-John McCain
McCain/Rudy 08-kill the terrorists and punch the hippies.
Weaving the bushliedcheneymcchimpyhalliburton into that comment is just priceless.
There was more I wanted to say, but alas, I am on the clock...
"Do not yield. Do not flinch. Stand up. Stand up with our President and fight. We're Americans. We're Americans, and we'll never surrender. They will."-John McCain
McCain/Rudy 08-kill the terrorists and punch the hippies.
Wubbies World, MSgt, USAF (Retired):
public static void main(String[] args) {
System.out.println("An argument is a sequence of statements aimed at demonstrating the truth of an assertion.); }
So much for reaching across the aisle
I value personal freedom and the rule of law higher than the Republicans.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
for at least an honest user name.
___________________________________
Two thirds of the world is covered by water,
the other third is covered by Champ Bailey.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Weirdest fetish I've ever seen.
Moe
PS: blam, by the way. You don't get the capital. You have to work for the capital.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Rule of Law, you must have loved Bill Clinton.
Personal freedom, well then I take it your not a Democrat.
So the question is, just what principles are you "higher" for, and compared to what bits of a human slag heap are you higher than? Couldn't be IQ !
Back to the medicine cabinet with you.
"a man's admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the contempt he feels for those around him". Tocqueville
It is much more likely you are just a reactionary twit.
"2. Let's be fair who is guilty. If the US is attacked after this travesty, Nancy and Dem Leadership should be arrested and tried for treason, and hung."
I would like to distance myself from these remarks. Those who would suggest violence for their political opponents have no place in honest, reasoned discourse.
1. "Reply To This" is your friend. Use it.
2. I did not suggest "violence for ... political opponents".
3. I requested that the people blocking this law be brought up on legal charges, as specified in the US Constitution. Please note that I also noted that they should have due process in the form of a trial.
4. I did not, as folks on the lefty sites frequently recommend for GWB, recommend that they should simply be shot.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
at what point to you stop referring to people as merely political opponents and instead as treasonous or as traitors? Albert Hiss wasn't just a political opponent. No, I'm not saying that any particular dem is actively conspiring with the enemy, but how would their actions differ if they were?
"Hey, I call 'em like I see 'em. I'm a whale biologist."
I meant Alger Hiss. What kind of name is Alger? I did him a favor by messing it up.
"Hey, I call 'em like I see 'em. I'm a whale biologist."
I wouldn't grant the telecoms immunity unless they confessed to what they actually did. That means admitting (among other facts) that they helped the NSA to do massive searches - including domestic only phone calls and web traffic - without warrants and without probable cause. That's the least we would expect if immunity were granted in a court of law - full disclosure.
"[T]hroughout the recent history of federal responses to various liability crises, the pattern has been the same: The elimination of causes of action has always been linked to some kind of quid pro quo, whether it took the form of a guaranteed payment, such as for the 9/11 victims' families, or access to a special court, such as in the case of childhood vaccines. The Black Lung Program and the attempted at instituting an asbestos program are both typical of how the federal government inserts itself into very pedestrian tort litigation by providing immunity from suit with one hand, and compensation to victims with the other.
"Yet to read the newspaper reports of the debate in the Senate over the reauthorization of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), it is as if this familiar, long history of immunity-for-compensation has been forgotten. The Republicans want to add to FISA a provision that would simply wipe away the lawsuits that have already been filed without any compensation at all. The Democrats are crying foul, arguing that this would set a terrible precedent for the future. But it might be worse than that--the Republicans' proposal might actually be unconstitutional.
- Findlaw columnist & Cardozo law school professor Anthony Sebok
Besides, if this Administration had any balls, they'd go after the Saudis (and you don't need to wiretap domestic only phone calls to do that) instead of expanding Executive power in a way that will surely come back to haunt us.
"Austere, intolerant, well-armed, and blood-thirsty, in their own regions the Wahhabis are a distinct factor which must be taken into account" - Winston Churchill, 1921
the Leadership of the Democratic Party is a bigger threat to the nation than the House of Saud.
And GWB should simply pardon the telecoms. Case closed.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
I have argued in favor of FISA, but I am against telecom immunity. The President has said that American lives will be sacrificed if Congress does not change FISA. But he has also said that he will veto any FISA bill that does not grant retro-active immunity. No immunity, no FISA bill. So if we take the President at his word, he's willing to let Americans die to protect the phone companies.
What part of "we need the cooperation of the telecoms to make the program work" don't you get?
Are you just ignorant or are you stupid? Those are the only two choices.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
We are a country that is based on the rule of law. If we cannot abide by the constitution and seek immunity for criminal acts that violate constitutional protections we are acting just like liberals who want to bend the amendments anyway they please depending on what they want at a given time.
I prefer to be a consistent conservative even when it is not a political gain for us. We certainly cannot make strict 1st and 2nd amendment arguments when we are bending over to twist the 4th amendment. Being true to your beliefs means taking positions sometimes that hurt politically.
international communications. Period.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
Immunity means the telecoms can cooperate without fear of criminal prosecution or civil lawsuits, so we must demand that they make a full admission. That's a very small price to pay for breaking the law.
"Austere, intolerant, well-armed, and blood-thirsty, in their own regions the Wahhabis are a distinct factor which must be taken into account" - Winston Churchill, 1921
That's a nice precedent - we'll just let all future 4th amendment violations go away as long as whoever commits a criminal violation of the amendment simply confesses.
Now that's liberal thinking.
That's not been charged by anybody but trial lawyers in a civil suit.
Your argument is total BS.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
If they didn't break any laws then why ask for immunity?
You can go ahead and take the liberal position on this, but no conservative I know wants to toss out immunity for potential law breakers in any circumstance.
...as one big fishing expedition, silly.
Did we somehow miss the nonsense of PlameGate? Or, if you prefer, MonicaGate?
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Besides illegal searches protected by the constitution.
...and I suggest that you take my advice.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
2, No.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
is the ability of the program to exist.
Al Qaeda appreciates all of you lefty wack jobs.
And the argument about your freedoms and liberty being compromised in anyway is a load of used cow food.
They violated the Fourth Amendment rights of American citizens, and rightly should be sued and made to pay damages for what they've done.
See, the real reason Bush wants telco immunity so badly he'd veto any FISA without it, even though it'd hamstring law enforcement and make terrorists' lives easier, is because if the lawsuits against the telcos continue, evidence brought up in discovery would implicate the Bush adminstration for ... wait for it ... violating the Fourth Amendment rights of American citizens!
Criminal activity in the Bush Administration? Tell me it ain't so!
Come back and ask for it when you start following the fourth amendment. Heck, I wouldn't be so against this idea if there wasn't such a shrieking when the idea of oversight -- or God forbid, an accurate accounting of the wiretaps -- is mentioned. It's not exactly like the computers can't keep the records automatically, and make them available for later review.
Sorry, Mr. President, but this American won't cower under his desk and beg for your protection in exchange for our basic civil rights.
Does anyone here really expect Bush to pull the plug on these wiretaps once the extension expires? After seven years, I think we can safely say that he's not exactly well-known for his strict adherence to the rule of law.
Can I persuade you to jump up and down on the floor, or are you more of a wall-puncher?
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
I'm already ticked because the Republicans caved. Nobody expects the spineless Democrats to stand up for our Constitution.
And continue to stand for freedom.
Updating FISA is part of that stand.
to obstruct signals intel on international communications during a time of war.
"The most dangerous form in which oppression can overshadow a community is that of popular sway" -James Fenimore Cooper
n/t
It works this way:
1. Soldiers and Marines capture notebooks, lists, cell phones and laptops during raids in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places.
2. Those bits of intel are scrubbed for pin numbers, telephone numbers and any other information.
3. Those numbers are plotted in a matrix to analyze frequency of calling and to create webs of phone calling circles.
4. The matrix is used to tap international calls to gain more intel, and then the process starts all over again.
There is no time and staff for the government to worry about small time drug users and the like. This is serious business. Any evidence gained by these programs of that nature would be thrown out anyway.
And yes, I do trust the folks doing it. Existence requires a certain amount of trust. You balance the risks with the benefits. It's better than being splattered on a wall somewhere by an idiot with a bomb.
"The most dangerous form in which oppression can overshadow a community is that of popular sway" -James Fenimore Cooper
Goldenboy, you don't know the half of it -- and that's not what I am object to! I went over the specifics yesterday, but to recap:
The Ultimate Net Monitoring Tool
Whistle-Blower's Evidence, Uncut
Listen up; Our Rights Are at Risk
"Austere, intolerant, well-armed, and blood-thirsty, in their own regions the Wahhabis are a distinct factor which must be taken into account" - Winston Churchill, 1921
I would also be OK with that if the Congress had declared war.
H.J. Res. 114, October 16, 2002
Senate 77-23
House 296-133
Fighting for conservatism one day at a time.
The resolution in question was limited to Iraq, specifically enumerated as such with respect to the War Powers Resolution. It certainly include a section suspending civil liberties.
S.J. Res 23, September 14, 2001
Senate 98-0
House 420-1
Fighting for conservatism one day at a time.
Errr, make that: ...it certainly DIDN'T include a section...
I kant tipe tuday.
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You just showed your hand NetRanger-now put on your tinfoil panties and go home.
"Do not yield. Do not flinch. Stand up. Stand up with our President and fight. We're Americans. We're Americans, and we'll never surrender. They will."-John McCain
McCain/Rudy 08-kill the terrorists and punch the hippies.
Ron Paul is a nut case. Government is like a steak: rational people want to trim the excess fat; Paul wants to remove the marbling from the prime rib.
prime rib
I may have to change my dinner plans. It's a good thing my wife likes steak.
Fighting for conservatism one day at a time.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
The idea that we have to have court permission to prosecute a war or to gather intel is mentally ill.
You can have FISA but you don't have to strip American's of their liberty to do it!
And what part of domestic only phone calls and communications (between U.S. citizens) do you not understand or respect?
"Austere, intolerant, well-armed, and blood-thirsty, in their own regions the Wahhabis are a distinct factor which must be taken into account" - Winston Churchill, 1921
If you are trying to say anything at all.
What freedoms do you think we are being stripped of?
Read the Fourth Amendment - you can't conduct warrantless searches on U.S. citizens (domestic phone calls and communication) unless you have probable cause. You can not conduct "fishing expeditions" on U.S. citizens just to see what you can find. That's the law
"Austere, intolerant, well-armed, and blood-thirsty, in their own regions the Wahhabis are a distinct factor which must be taken into account" - Winston Churchill, 1921
***
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so.” – Ronald Reagan
It is illegal to search a U.S. citizens communications or records in the hopes of finding incriminating evidence - unless there is probable cause and a warrant. Whether it's motivated over concerns of prescription drug abuse or conspiracy to commit terrorism, the principle is the same. The law is the law.
Rush hammers officials over 'fishing expedition'
WorldNetDaily.com, December 23, 2003Rush Limbaugh used his syndicated radio show today to blast a judge's decision to allow prosecutors to examine his medical records to look for anything that might suggest the talk-show host engaged in illegal "doctor shopping" for prescription painkillers...
"The judge ruled against me on the privacy of my medical records despite the fact that we claim that the prosecution in this case did not follow the law as written by the Florida legislature in securing those medical records," Limbaugh told his listening audience...
Characterizing the action against him as a "fishing expedition," Limbaugh further explained the analogy: "We can cast a wide fishing net, we can stand out there after all these leaks, and we can throw a fishing line out there and we can [say], 'Ooh, let's maybe, maybe we'll find something in Limbaugh's medical records.'"
"Austere, intolerant, well-armed, and blood-thirsty, in their own regions the Wahhabis are a distinct factor which must be taken into account" - Winston Churchill, 1921
***
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so.” – Ronald Reagan
Check the history of totalitarian nations - they all begin with collecting privata data of its citizens.
If the 4th amendment means so little - let's just get rid of it in the name of national security.
Really, what does anyone have to fear from the cops breaking and entering anywhere anytime to conduct searches - if you're not a criminal you will have nothing to worry about.
That's two inflammatory posts in a short period of time for you. Sandwich, glass of water, maybe a half hour on the treadmill.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
A very Dadlike thing to say, if I do say so myself. Timeout has become a key punishment, although from the way Anthony howls and pleads, people think I'm hitting him with a switch lol.
"Do not yield. Do not flinch. Stand up. Stand up with our President and fight. We're Americans. We're Americans, and we'll never surrender. They will."-John McCain
McCain/Rudy 08-kill the terrorists and punch the hippies.
You tools would have been saying to impeach George Washington for using the naitonal army to quell the Whiskey tax rebellion.
We either learn to use information technology as a nation or we perish, becuase the enemies are certianly using it.
You reactionaries, with your delusions of dictatorship behind every move are annoying and shallow.
Yeah, but they weren't democracies like America.
If you oppose unlimited executive data collection without oversight, you're no better than the spineless dems (and by association, terrorists).
...a "special comment" on how the Republicans are allegedly "demagoguing the issue"?
“.....women and minorities hardest hit”
that called Bush a liar and a fascist.
Can't say I disagree with that.
The current average percentage of moonbats who get it right is somewhere around 36%.
Now zip up your pants and scram.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
They have to get off somehow and no one in the real world will give them the time of day - especially for their little twisted political fetish.
___________________________________
Two thirds of the world is covered by water,
the other third is covered by Champ Bailey.
I don't think you do, because Bush isn't it.
“.....women and minorities hardest hit”
I'm not going to sellout my liberty. There is simply no Constitutional basis to conduct warrantless searches on citizens without probable cause. Case closed.
Fourth Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
And there's no way you can get me to believe the Democratic Party is a bigger threat to the United States then Saudi Arabia: the transfer of wealth, the destruction of Western culture, the weakening of our economy and our foreign policy -- the Saudis trump the Dems in spades.
"Austere, intolerant, well-armed, and blood-thirsty, in their own regions the Wahhabis are a distinct factor which must be taken into account" - Winston Churchill, 1921
Should we have not done the equivalent things in WWII?
The fourth extends to international communications?
The fourth extends to enemy combatants?
Yes, we should not have done the equivalent things in WWII - we shouldn't ever intentionally violate the Fourth Amendment, or the Second Amendment, or the First..
And you seem to miss the point, In addition to spying on enemy combatants and international communications, they also searched the U.S. citizens (estimated 1/2 of all domestic only communication). There is no reason to spy on U.S. citizens without probable cause and without a warrant. It's the Constitution!
"Austere, intolerant, well-armed, and blood-thirsty, in their own regions the Wahhabis are a distinct factor which must be taken into account" - Winston Churchill, 1921
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
in the Constitution it says that.
Citizens cannot be prosecuted without warranted evidence.
No one is being taken court by way of this evidence.
If you want America to be safe for spies and terrorists to plan in confidence, wish away. The bad guys appreciate it.
If you think planning for terrorist attacks is a protected part of free speech, then you may be literate but you are still ignorant.
You are an idiot, not to put too fine a point on it.
and now you are boring me.
Paraphrased: "Oh, you must support terrorists killing us."
Bleh.
Frankly, I'd rather not see a government empowered to deem someone a terrorist at whim, and then proceed to act against them without restraint. There needs to be a system that ensures that surveillance powers are not abused, and that the constitutional rights of citizens are looked after. By cutting the judiciary out of the process, the chances that infringements on constitutional liberties will go uncorrected are high, are certain.
Why try to subvert the Constitution?
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Concur.
May I add that the contempt proceedings are with merit, and relevant to the surveillance bill that the GOPers are gaming? Why are the Repubs so gung-ho about handing over wide-ranging powers to a government with so many dark clouds hanging over its Justice Dept.?
...the shadows, ready to spring out at a moment's notice to torment the pure souls of progressives with our barbed whips...
[DING!]
Your time is up. Please deposit $5 for the next 5 minutes.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Way to ignore the dilemma, Moe.
Rather than prancing about condemning and teasing, why not reconcile the issue?
The good guys won this one; we're just waiting for Nancy Pelosi to cave. Which she will.
In other words, I'm being dismissive. Because it amuses me to do so.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
...I'm going to go play some computer games. The kid's finally napping.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
You're not the one who won, Moe. That was someone else. We'll have to let history decide the "good guys" of it.
And being dismissive of it, well, that answers my question of reconciliation. You'll never have to answer for your foolishness, which is bully for you.
God, I'm feeding a troll on his own board. There's my own foolishness.
:)
Also: I'm mocking you quite cheerfully, and I know that it's natural to want to strike back; but if I catch you directly insulting anybody else here, your account goes away. Savvy?
Next post, please.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
I will cheerfully comply to the best of my ability.
Pardon for seeming like a rude guest, but when you DO choose to mock, can you be a little less taunting and a little more engaging? I take it you're the equivalent of a moderator; it's a little odd that a moderator would provoke someone clearly taking the opposition's side on a highly partisan forum.
All that said, defend your position. You got your post probably by being a positively contributing member of the boards, so contribute already. Why give a compromised government unlimited power to intercept communications without including means to prevent or punish abuse?
Thanks.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Since we're on the topic, why does number #89 in this thread get a pass, while my own transgression does not?
It goes directly to the Directors, so no worries there.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
in this are nil.
They are completely without merit.
They are insultingly without merit.
And the dhimmies know it.
and blast the bas*ards.
Also, if they allow the law to expire can he issue and Executive Order of somesort or act as CinC and refuse to abandon the existing program on "national security in wartime" grounds?
____
CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.